Episode 4 - Bronwyn

SPEAKER_02 0:14

Hello, and welcome to the Quiet Women Podcast. I'm your host, Stephanie Sumner. On this episode, we'll talk with Bronwyn Thornburg. In 2001, a few years after I met her, she sought to make change on the campus of UNC Chapel Hill, the country's first public university. Her effort earned her a compliment from a UNC icon and had an impact on her own wedding. Her attempt at something of this magnitude is something I've long admired about Bronwyn, and I'm thrilled to be able to share her story. So welcome, Bronwyn, and thank you for joining me on the Quiet Woman podcast to talk about how you took on the bureaucracy of a huge public university with a cause that was close to your heart. How long have we known each other? What do we figure it out it was?

SPEAKER_00 1:10

Yeah, we met in '98. So let's do this.

SPEAKER_02 1:17

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

22 years.

SPEAKER_02 1:19

22 years. Uh, of course, you know, it feels like it's been half of that. As you know, this podcast is called Quiet Women. Do you consider yourself a quiet woman?

SPEAKER_00 1:35

You know, I when you first presented me this opportunity, it took me almost a month to say yes, and I kind of objected to the characterization. But um, you know, given deeper thought, I I do. Um, I think there's a lot of different types of quiet women, right? Like the the instinctive interpretation I had, which I think is the incorrect one, is to liken it to meek or um um kind of in the shadows or servile in some way, like um lacking in personality or um those definitions. But I guess the way that it speaks to me is I'm just a person that follows my own authentic self and just gets things done. And I don't need external motivators to do it. I don't need an audience, I'm not doing it for anybody else. And so I guess in some respects, that makes me quiet. Like I I'm not the person that lights up a room or needs um fanfare or um responds well to that, but I love people. I don't consider myself necessarily introverted. I am more energized when I'm around others than when I'm solo. So I don't think I'm truly an introvert. I I definitely need my my downtime.

SPEAKER_02 3:04

I I like that element, what you said about you don't you don't need the recognition or the fanfare that you you do it for yourself. And so it's it's almost this quiet confidence and you believe in yourself and you don't need that validation from anybody else.

SPEAKER_00 3:23

Yes. I would say that has to do a lot with the way I was raised. Um, when I think about, you know, my siblings and my parents. We're all folks that tackle projects, get things done, do what we want to do. Um, sometimes people can um perceive that in a negative way. You know, I've definitely over the course of my life been told I'm too forward, or I'm a bull in a china shop, or um, you know, I speak my mind too often or too loudly. So that's why, you know, that side of me, the way other people can interpret me, makes it hard to put like the quiet woman label on myself. I think my parents valued self-sufficiency and independence over just about everything else. They gave my siblings and me a lot of um freedom. I my sisters-in-law have a term for it. They call it raised by wolves. Um they're not quite sure how four individuals ended up um as relatively sane and high-functioning as we are, um, given that there was so much um independence granted and supported. Um, you know, they were just the anti-helicopter parents. Like they didn't arrange things for us, they didn't check our homework, they didn't they just presumed we were going to do our jobs and do them with excellence. That's what was expected.

SPEAKER_02 5:20

And it probably made you grow up and mature faster than others.

SPEAKER_00 5:25

Oh, definitely. I was the last of four kids, and they were 10, 11, and 12 years older than I was. So it was more like being an only child. It was definitely the philosophy of like, you know, kids are welcome at adult events, but you don't speak unless you're spoken to. Um, there's a lot to learn from and observe, and you know, you should be listening and learning and observing. And it's not, it's not a you show.

SPEAKER_02 5:58

So you have called yourself an ambervert. Can you explain what that is?

SPEAKER_00 6:02

Ambivert, like ambidextrous. Ah, it means like you are both intra and extra. Like whenever I would take the Myers-Briggs personality type indicator, um, on three of the four categories, I always land like one or two steps from the middle. And if I would wait, like for for whatever reason, early in my career and in college, this was given to me multiple times, um, every few years, and I would change. I would shift like from an from an N to an S, um, or from an E to an I, which is E is extrovert and I is introvert. So I always sort of considered myself on the fence of the two. And um I came across the term ambivert a couple of years ago. And it was when I was interviewing someone for work. Um, I I'm convinced in the role that I have now that everyone that's successful in my role is an ambivert. Like you can swing both ways essentially. That um you you need your downtime, but you are also somebody that can have your energy fueled by other people.

SPEAKER_02 7:21

Let's talk about something that you did that has always impressed me. And that is when you were a young 20-something, you sought to make change on the campus of UNC Chapel Hill, your alma mater, and where you worked at the time. And can you talk about that change that you wanted to make, what it was?

SPEAKER_00 7:42

Sure. Um I made a proposal, a written proposal to the chancellor at the time that they consider converting what was an old, dusty, unused building um which had great historic significance, had been the second chapel of the university. Um, Person Hall was the first, but we're speaking about Gerard Hall, which was the second. Um, I had proposed that they convert that back to its original purpose of being a place of um spiritual life for all to be an interfaith, um, non-denominational. I guess those are two different things. Um, really, I was proposing non-denominational so that all would feel welcome, um, whether they were a Muslim or Jewish or Christian or what have you, to make that a place for students to use for that purpose, whether it was regularly daily stop-ins to just have a quiet place on campus to reflect, pray, meditate, whatever you would want to call it in your tradition. Because I felt like that was something I would have liked as a student there. Um, there are a lot of campus ministry offices there on the periphery of campus, but you know, if you're just killing 15 minutes in between classes, there's it's not easy to scratch that itch with the opportunities that were available at the time. So I was proposing that they consider having that venue be for that purpose. And the secondary goal would be then also it could serve as a place where students and alumni could have spiritual events such as celebrations, weddings, etc., that it could generate income for the university in that manner as an event space.

SPEAKER_02 9:51

What was it that made you realize that this was missing from campus? Was there an experience or or a moment in time where you're like, man, we're missing this?

SPEAKER_00 10:02

You know, there were there were sort of two things, observations that happened in the months leading up to it. Well, one I already said, just like from a student perspective, this was something we were lacking that other institutions had. Also, you know, shortly after graduating college, and we had a lot of friends getting married, and I noticed a lot of other institutions, even public institutions, had this sort of a setup. You know, UVA had a chapel, William and Mary had a like, why didn't we have somewhere that an alum could get married on a campus? But that was a consecrated indoor space, not just an outdoor option. So that was one thing I observed in the years immediately following school. And the other was when I met my now husband, he was kind of on his own faith journey. He was um not raised in a particular tradition. Um his parents were one was Catholic, one was Methodist, and um he had been trying to decide what he wanted to do about his own faith. And so we went through this experience of literally shopping every um Christian church option in town. Like we would go to the newcomers at the Lutheran church, and we would go to the information session at the Methodist. And so I accompanied him to all of those. And um I just thought, again, uh, this is so interesting. Because we were visiting each one of those places that are immediately surrounding the campus, like, why isn't there a place in the campus on the campus?

SPEAKER_02 11:35

And so what was the spark that made you assume responsibility for this?

SPEAKER_00 11:43

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Um, I I mean, I guess the more I dug around, the more it just seemed so sensible. And that um I I knew that there might be some church versus state controversy about it, but I felt that there were so many ways to get around that. Um, and there were so many examples and proof where that had already been dispelled as a barrier at other places and in history that I just felt like it would be a relatively easy thing, I think. I don't know. I wanted to see it happen. I mean, I'm Catholic and the Newman Center, which is you know the campus ministry for Catholics, which is back behind the Carolina Inn, they would have um Ash Wednesday Mass in Gerrard Hall. Like it was already considered to be a consecrated space in the Catholic faith. And they would do that because they would want it to be convenient for students on you know a weekday, a Wednesday, to come and get the Ash distribution and celebrate that holy day. Um, so I knew like okay, they're using it. Um, there's this history of the other Christian faiths using it. Like, why aren't why isn't it being used more? It just I don't know. Uh it seemed simple.

SPEAKER_02 13:11

This wasn't a simple task. I mean, it involved a lot of research, researching um UNC's history, looking at what other universities offered, gaining support among campus influencers, enrolling the broader Chapel Hill religious community, and you even had a publicity plan, as I believe. So can you talk about everything you did to make your case?

SPEAKER_00 13:37

Well, you know, it was a different time. Like the internet and email was like still what five years fresh. I mean, you know, there was an abundance of information. Like it was easy to do the research thanks to the internet, but in terms of getting the word out, you know, I still did that the old-fashioned way, wrote a lot of letters, um, did some emails, went to some campus meetings. Um, you know, I guess like once I met up against a little resistance that was more motivating. Oh, okay, this isn't gonna be as easy. That makes me want to work harder.

SPEAKER_02 14:17

What kind of help did you have in making this case?

SPEAKER_00 14:22

Well, one person that I really respected that gave me a lot of encouragement, not necessarily his blessing, but gave me a compliment that was very encouraging was Bill Friday, who is kind of um an institution in and of himself, huge figure within the university, has had held many roles, is now deceased. But I met with him in his office to ask his advice about, you know, how to pitch this at the top. A friend of a friend had kind of helped me set that up, and that was nice. Um, but he told me I had gumption. That's awesome. Um, and that was really a huge compliment coming from a fellow like him. And he said, We need more people like you at this university. You've got gumption. Certainly there were people among the campus ministry community that that were supportive. Um, and within the greater faith community of Chapel Hill that were supportive. Pastor Seymour, who was at the Baptist church in town, that had some roots tied to Gerard Hall, was very supportive and wrote, I believe it was an op-ed about it, um, or a letter of support. I went to the faculty council of the university and they made, you know, some formal movement that they thought it was a good idea and you know, spoke to this select group of professors and faculty members who were on that council. So I mean, there were little like um baby steps of of um folks being on board with it. I guess I never perceived it as like taking on the administration or like taking on the university. I just didn't see it that way. I just thought, well, this is silly for this building to sit here unused. Like, why can't it be used in this way that would benefit a broad spectrum of folks?

SPEAKER_02 16:20

Little did you know.

SPEAKER_00 16:22

Little did I know. I there were some people I upset too. I mean, I had one acquaintance tell me that he would find an attorney pro bono to fight it like tooth and nail every step of the way because he Why?

SPEAKER_02 16:33

Like was it a church and state thing?

SPEAKER_00 16:35

Yes, he perceived it as as a violation of that for sure.

SPEAKER_02 16:40

Even though other public universities had gotten around it.

SPEAKER_00 16:44

Right. And, you know, even though the founders of our country had practiced within our government buildings, etc. But um, you know, it was it's just like a sticky, sticky subject for some folks. But unfortunately, you know, there's a lot of people who practice their religion in an extreme manner, and that wasn't what I was um touting. I was touting something much more inclusive and representative. You know, like I got down to the details of what are the elements that every faith recognizes as being like a spiritually symbolic, water, light, um, nature, those sorts of things. Like how what would you do inside that space to make it feel good for everybody? There wouldn't be a cross or a crucifix, there wouldn't be you know certain symbols.

SPEAKER_02 17:39

I mean, I I love that because inclusivity and just um the journey is what the university environment is about. Right.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

It's about ex exploration and finding yourself and understanding and educating. Um, yeah, I think it it could have been a great opportunity for doing all of those things. And maybe in an environment, you know, maybe not like right now, but maybe last year or you know, nine months ago, um, maybe it would have been met differently and understood for you know that benefit of inclusivity. Because that's more of a talking point, more relevant to more groups of folks now. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 18:30

So um, so we're dancing all around it. What was the outcome?

SPEAKER_00 18:33

Right. And I'm making it sound like it didn't happen because people hated the idea. That's that's actually not why it didn't happen. It didn't happen because the university had this like 20-year campus development plan that it was funding and fundraising for, and this particular building got assigned to a fine arts corridor of campus of multiple buildings. And because it had been used as a performance space, um, it was to be renovated and reused as a performance space. So it got like earmarked and flagged for that purpose. So they just basically said, um, no, we're putting it in this fine arts box. It needs to go with its um partner buildings in that vicinity and be used for that purpose only.

SPEAKER_02 19:25

Your Catholic wedding took place in Gerard Hall, which is the building that we've been discussing. Why was it important for you to have this ceremony on UNC's campus?

SPEAKER_00 19:38

Well, Carolina was common ground for my fiance and I. We didn't meet there, we met because of it. We met through mutual friends and we had been there at the same time and just not known one another. Um, he was from California, I was from North Carolina, so that was our our overlap spot that meant something to both of us. But we really were hopeful of having it in that area. And him being a new Catholic, he really had strong preferences about space and environment. Catholics don't allow you to have an outdoor wedding like the university offers the Forest Theater, the Arboretum, or the Botanic Gardens, those are some of the venues that you know you can use that are university-owned for wedding events. Um, but we couldn't have a Catholic ceremony in those, and that was important to me, especially. And I knew because Newman already had a history of having mass in Gerard Hall, as I had said on Ash Wednesday, for example, that they would approve that space if I could secure it. Something I learned was that because it is campus space, you could reserve it. And that's all I did. Um, I reserved it through the regular protocol for reserving university space. And honestly, up until the day of, I really thought somebody was gonna call me and say, you can't do this.

SPEAKER_02 21:10

Because you were you were honest that you were going to have a Catholic wedding in there?

SPEAKER_00 21:15

Yeah. Yeah. They knew what the purpose was for. And I just thought, this is so weird. Um, this must be like some sort of an administrative loophole that nobody's like asking me more questions about it.

SPEAKER_02 21:28

I mean, it was all in the up and up. Did you uncover this fact while you were doing all this research, or did you already know that?

SPEAKER_00 21:35

Um, no, I uncovered it because in part of the conversations of like, well, why don't we do this, allow people to have events there? I think somebody said to me, Well, anybody can have an event there, like you, it's because you're staff or just reserve it.

SPEAKER_02 21:56

Now that you are 20 years older and have Benefit of hindsight. Would you have done anything differently?

SPEAKER_00 22:06

You know, I should have kept up with it, but I think it was just a simple matter of time, energy, effort. I mean, you know, I was unmarried, I had no children. I I would still be pursuing it, probably to this day. You know, and it was a lot of research to keep up with. I had made contacts at all these other institutions and schools and um been visiting and learning about those, and I would have had to have maintained all of that. And I don't know, I guess I guess maybe I didn't want to take up the banner, you know, for as long as it would have required. And that's okay. I mean I I don't regret trying. I don't think it was necessarily a failure that it didn't come to fruition. But I mean I guess in hindsight, if I had given maybe more time, maybe more effort, maybe it could have been more successful. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 23:08

What has your attention now?

SPEAKER_00 23:12

I mean, a lot of bandwidth is going toward their education.

SPEAKER_02 23:16

Your children.

SPEAKER_00 23:17

Yes. And staying on top of them, maximizing the opportunities that they're given, because we send them to private school. And um, you know, helping them find their passions, their interests. What are they gonna put their energies behind? Shaping humans a little bit. That's that's very time consuming. Not to say my children are my life. I also have a career. And, you know, also supporting my husband and his his career development too. That's important to us. So you know, maintaining friends and family connections. We're super close to our families and we all live in different places and the years pass and the younger ones get to be adults. It's like very um awesome to watch nieces and nephews grow and attend their big events and participate in their adult lives. And I spend a lot of time helping my mom who's aging, you know, on the other end of the life spectrum. And those are where my energies go these days. No, there's no cause on my calendar right now.

SPEAKER_02 24:23

Well, the cause is everyone else. The cause isn't it's not you, it sounds like it's yeah, it's helping support everyone else in their causes.

SPEAKER_00 24:32

Sure. I mean, that's how we show love is time and energy and effort towards others. And that's not to say there isn't time, energy, and effort spent on oneself. That's necessary too.

SPEAKER_02 24:50

Thank you, Bronwyn, for sharing your story with me, with us. Are there any final thoughts you'd like to share?

SPEAKER_00 25:01

Uh I guess it just boils down to authenticity. I I hope and encourage, you know, everybody to just be their authentic selves. Um pursue your interests, whatever they are. You know, it doesn't matter what other people think or whether the outcome is ultimately perfect or successful or what you'd envisioned. I would just, you know, be your authentic self. Always. That's I try. Um that's what I try and do every day. And um it's something only you can do. You know, nobody can do that for you.

SPEAKER_02 25:38

You know, it's so easy to say, just be your authentic self, but you know, that that takes a lot of vulnerability, right?

SPEAKER_00 25:47

I mean, I'm of the mindset that, you know, the right people will find you if you're your authentic self. Like if there are people that are being negative and judgmental, then they're not the right people for you.

SPEAKER_02 26:01

That's true. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

I I I don't think there's ever any reason not to be. Sure, I mean, there will be naysayers, as I said, I uh I've been mischaracterized by people my whole life. Um but uh it doesn't make me want to be different. I mean, it has made me soften certain aspects of myself at times. Um, or you know, market myself differently around certain people, you know, um finesse different angles, but um not fundamentally change.

SPEAKER_02 26:38

Good for you. I mean, that's something to definitely admire because that that takes strength and confidence in yourself to just let yourself be seen.

SPEAKER_00 26:52

It's not always pretty, but I don't think I'm I'm mysterious. I think that um once people get to know me, I'm pretty pretty accessible, pretty transparent. I, you know, you get what you get. I can attest to that.

SPEAKER_02 27:23

So often we only consider our wins as worthy of sharing or celebrating. Whether we succeed or not, the attempt alone is an accomplishment because it is so easy to do nothing. That's what I love about Bromwyn's story. It was through the attempt that she impressed the esteemed Bill Friday, the state of North Carolina's icon of education, and why her wedding was held on the campus she and her husband adore in the very building she was fighting for. Two monumental moments that may not have been the goal she was seeking, but were achievements in themselves. I invite you to join our Facebook community. Search for Quiet Women Podcast. And if you're a quiet woman with a story to share, or would like to nominate someone to be a guest on this podcast, please reach out to me at QuietwomenPodcast at gmail.com. Until next time, remember, your silence doesn't define you. Your unique and complex life is what has made you into the amazing person you are today. I see you. We all see you. And we are here for you, and we cheer for you.